$Unique_ID{USH01569} $Pretitle{132} $Title{The Nixon Tapes February 28, 1973. (9:12am - 10:23am)} $Subtitle{} $Author{Nixon, Richard M.} $Affiliation{Senate Judiciary Committee} $Subject{nixon pres dean john get say now deleted inaudible right} $Volume{} $Date{1974} $Log{} Book: The Nixon Tapes Author: Nixon, Richard M. Affiliation: Senate Judiciary Committee Date: 1974 February 28, 1973. (9:12am - 10:23am) Meeting: President Nixon and John Dean, Oval Office John Dean: Good morning, Sir. Pres. Nixon: Oh, hi. John Dean: How are you? Pres. Nixon: I wanted to talk with you about what kind of a line to take. I now want Kleindienst on the - it isn't a matter of trust. You have it clearly understood that you will call him and give him directions and he will call you, et cetera, and so on. I just don't want Dick to go off - you see, for example, on executive privilege - I don't want him to go off and get the damn thing - get us John Dean: Make any deals on it - Pres. Nixon: Make a deal - that is the point. Baker, as I said, is going to keep at arm's length and you've got to be very firm with these guys or you may not end up with many things. Now as I said the only back-up position I can possibly see is one of a (inaudible) if Kleindienst wants to back (inaudible) for (inaudible) - didn't want to but suggested we ought to back them heavily, send them up there in executive session. Well, now you all know that under executive session we still have the problem, and it ain't good. Well, I am thinking particularly of Baker because it will go to him without any question and that is going to be far more significant. This bothers us at the moment, but that's (inaudible) to me. And they will haul him up there and bull-rag him around the damn place and it will raise holy hell with Rogers and all our - the other people. John Dean: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: I sent some notes out - a couple of yellow pages - something on the teachers' thing that I am not doing to-day. Just send it back to me, please. Secretary: Alright, Sir. Pres. Nixon: So you see, I think you better have a good, hard face to face talk with him and say, look, we have thought this thing over. And you raise the point with him that this cannot be in executive session because he is likely to float it out there and they will grab it. John Dean: That's right, and as I mentioned yesterday, he is meeting with Sam Ervin and Baker in this joint session and that is probably one of the first things they will discuss. Pres. Nixon: The main thing Ervin is going to be talking about is executive privilege. Has that meeting been set yet, though? John Dean: No, it has not. There is ample time to have Dick go up there - Pres. Nixon: You have a talk with him and say we had a talk about this - now your position now I know (inaudible) which they probably never accept but it will make his position be reasonable in the public mind. That is what we have in mind. John Dean: Right. Correct. Pres. Nixon: Another possibility is the one that Ehrlichman has suggested. If you could have an agreement that the Chairman and the ranking member could question basically the same under very restricted - a little bit early (inaudible) John Dean: Them coming down here, say? Pres. Nixon: Basically, that is the suggestion. John Dean: I think that is sort of "if" we couldn't get the written interrogatories. That is still a serious precedent to deal with if they come down here and start questioning people I think the issues would have to be so narrowed for even that situation. And that sort of thing would evolve with the narrowing of the issues where what information a Haldeman or Ehrlichman might have. The Committee needs to be complete in its report of its investigation. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. We will say that you can have written interrogatories under oath, then answer questions. John Dean: Publicly you are not withholding any information and you are not using the shield of the Presidency. Pres. Nixon: When you talk to Kleindienst - because I have raised this (inaudible) thing with him on the Hiss Case he has forgotten, I suppose. Go back and read the first chapter of Six Crises. But I know, as I said, that was espionage against the nation, not against the party. FBI, Hoover, himself, who's a friend of mine said "I am sorry I have been ordered not to cooperate with you" and they didn't give us one (adjective omitted) thing. I conducted that investigation with two (characterization omitted) committee investigators - that stupid - they were tenacious. We got it done. Then we worked that thing. We then got the evidence, we got the typewriter, we got the Pumpkin Papers. We got all of that ourselves. The FBI did not cooperate. The Justice Department did not cooperate. The Administration would not answer questions except, of course, for Cabinet officers, I mean like Burling came down and some of the others. John Dean: Funny, when the shoe is on the other foot how they look at things, isn't it? Pres. Nixon: Well, as I said, the New York Times, the Washington Post and all the rest. They put it in terms of executive privilege because they were against the investigation. So the real question now is say that I having been through that - we have talked it over and that I have always felt very miffed about that because I thought that was very wrong and now this is another matter. But I think we ought to cooperate in finding an area of cooperation. Here it is. You see, the Baker theory is that he wants to have a big slambang thing for a whole week and then he thinks interest in the whole thing will fall off. And he is rig t about that. But his interest in having a big slambang for a week is that we bring all the big shots up right away. The big shots you could bring up. They could bring up Stans. They have to put him on, and they've got to put Mitchell on. They would like, of course, to get Haldeman, Ehrlichman and Colson. John Dean: I understand that you and Bob have talked about running Stans out as sort of a stalking horse on it, on another post. Pres. Nixon: It is not my idea. I guess Moore or somebody mentioned it. John Dean: I think it was my idea. I think it could be one defusing factor in the hearings. Stans would like to get his story out. He is not in any serious problem ultimately. It could be rough and tumble, but Maury is ready to take it and it would be a mini-hearing there is no doubt about it. But this further detracts from the other committee. Pres. Nixon: It would be a mini-hearing, it is true. Except knowing the Press and knowing - like they have taken - they sold several of these stories about Colson and Haldeman about four times. John Dean: Well, I know that. Pres. Nixon: Well, I just wonder if that doesn't do that? John Dean: At present I hesitate to send Stans. They would give him a hot seat. Pres. Nixon: Somebody is after him about Vesco. I first read the story briefly in the Post. I read, naturally, the first page and turned to the Times to read it. The Times had in the second paragraph that the money had been returned, but the Post didn't have it. John Dean: That is correct. Pres. Nixon: The Post didn't have it until after you continued to the back section. It is the (adjective omitted) thing I ever saw. John Dean: Typical. Pres. Nixon: My guess is the Star pointed out (inaudible) that they - (inaudible). Actually they got the money after the 10th, but I don't think they pointed out that Sears got it before. John Dean: For all purposes, the donor - Vesco Pres. Nixon: Stans would never do a thing like that! Never. Never. Never. John Dean: I think we have a good strong case that the donor had relinquished control of the money, and constructive possession of the money was in the hands of the finance committee, Sears and the like. So that there is not - ah - Pres. Nixon: How did they get my brother in it? Eddie? John Dean: That was sheer sandbagging of your brother. Here is what they did. They called him down here in Washington. Pres. Nixon: Who did? John Dean: It was Vesco and Sears and said that, "we want to talk to you about the nature of this transaction because we have had earlier conversations with Stans." He really wasn't privy to it, and didn't know much about it, but what the long and short of it was that they were after him to find out from Stans whether they wanted cash or checks. Stans just responded to your brother and said, "I don't really care - whatever they want to do," and that is what he relayed back. He didn't even understand why he was there. He is just as clean as a whistle. There is just nothing there at all. Pres. Nixon: I know that. I know that myself. So you sort of lean to having Stans starting out there? John Dean: I think it would take a lot of the teeth out of the - you know - the stardom of the people are trying to build up to. If Stans has already gone to a hearing in another committee, obviously they will use everything they have at that time and it won't be a hell of a lot. It confuses the public. The public is bored with this thing already. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. John Dean: One of the things I think we did succeed in before the election - Pres. Nixon: Stans is very clean. Unless I make a mistake on this thing, the way I analyze it, and I have stayed deliberately away from it, but I think I can sense what it is. The way I analyze the thing, Stans would have been horrified at any such thing. And, what happened was he honestly is outraged. He thinks - what happened was he thinks he eventually found a line on somebody's hard earned cash and got into this silly business with it. John Dean: He does and he is a victim of circumstances, of innuendo, of false charges. He has a darn good chance of winning that libel suit he has against Larry O'Brien. Pres. Nixon: Has he? John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Good. That's why Larry filed a counter suit. John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: I see. Ziegler was disturbed at the news that they subpoenaed newsmen. Did that disturb you? John Dean: No, it didn't disturb me at all. No Sir. I talked with Ron at some length about it the other night. I said, "Ron, first of all you can rest assured that the White House was not involved in that decision." Exceptional case. Pres. Nixon: It should involve prosecution. John Dean: No, it is a civil deposition and it is not because we haven't reached the newsman's privilege issue yet, and that is way down the road yet, if for some reason they refuse to testify on some given evidence. What they are trying to establish is the fact that Edward Bennett Williams' law firm passed out an amended complaint that libeled Stans before it was into the Court process, so it was not privileged. And the newsmen are the people who can answer that question. Also they are trying to find out how Larry O'Brien and Edward Bennett Williams made statements to the effect that this law suit - the first law suit they had filed against the Committee - was not really to establish any invasion of privacy threat, rather they were harrassing the Committee. Pres. Nixon: The Committee to Re-Elect? John Dean: They made this off the record to several newsmen and we know they did this. That this was a drummed up law suit. Pres. Nixon: So therefore that proves also malice, doesn't it? John Dean: It makes the abuse of process case that we have against them on a counter suit. And the lawyers made a very conscious and good decision to proceed with the suit and if they did, they were going to have to have this information and it doesn't bother me if they subpoenaed nine or ten - Pres. Nixon: Well, one hell of a lot of people don't give one damn about this issue of the suppression of the press, etc. We know that we aren't trying to do it. They all squeal about it. It is amusing to me when they say - I watched the networks and I thought they were restrained. What (expletive omitted) do they want them to do - go through the 1968 syndrome when they were 8 to 1 against us. They are only three to one this time. It is really sickening though to see these guys. These guys have always figured we have the press on our side. You know we receive a modest amount of support - no more. Colson sure making them move it around, saying we don't like this or that and (inaudible) John Dean: Well, you know Colson's threat of a law suit which was printed in Evans and Novak had a very sobering effect on several of the national magazines. They are now checking before printing a lot of this Watergate junk they print. They check the press office trying to get a confirmation or denial, or call the individuals involved. And they have said they are doing it because they are afraid a libel suit on them. So it did have a sobering effect. We will keep them honest if we can remind them that they can't print anything and get away with it. Pres. Nixon: Well, as you of course know, at the time of the Hills case (inaudible) John Dean: Yes, I have noticed. We have to establish, one, malice for reckless disregard (inaudible) Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Malice is impossible for (inaudible) It has to get, it's got to get up in through me. (inaudible) Reckless disregard maybe. John Dean: Tough. That is a bad decision, Mr. President. It really is a bad decision. Pres. Nixon: What is the name of the case - horrible. John Dean: (inaudible) & Sullivan and it came out of the South on a civil rights. Pres. Nixon: It was about some guy who was a police chief or something. Anyway, I remember reading it at the time when I thought we were suing LIFE for Hills. When LIFE was guilty as hell. John Dean: Did you win it? Pres. Nixon: Supreme Court - four to three. There were a couple missing or it would have probably been five to three and one-half. Pres. Nixon: Well, let's go back so it is clearly understood. We must go forward on that. I think you had better go over and get in touch with Dick. And say Dick you keep it at your level. Pres. Nixon: My guess is that he is going to be in the end, and I would say, "this is the position, Dick, you should take on this." Tell him I took that position with Baker. Baker is a smoothy - impressive - The President didn't say this or that - they recommended it and the President has approved it. Right? Is that what you would say? John Dean: Yes sir, I think that is absolutely on all fours. And how about our dealings with Baker? Under normal Congressional relations, viz-a-viz Timmons and Baker, should we have Timmons dealing? Pres. Nixon: Well, he objected to (inaudible) something that is a curious thing on that (inaudible) made a very big gaff calling him and urging and trying to influence who would be on his staff. (expletive omitted) I don't know why he did that, if he did. But if he did. I don't know why Baker would resent it. But, nevertheless, I don't know how to deal with him, frankly. HR Haldeman: Why don't you ask (inaudible) to see him. Pres. Nixon: I gathered the impression that Baker didn't want to talk with anyone but Kleindienst. John Dean: Well, OK, I think that is one we will just have to monitor and that is one we will have to know an awful lot about along the road. Pres. Nixon: Well let Timmons tell Baker that if he wants to talk with anybody at the White House, if he says he doesn't want to talk to Haldeman, doesn't want to talk to Ehrlichman, that you, Dean, are available. But nobody else. How does that sound to you? John Dean: I think that sounds good. Pres. Nixon: You tell Timmons that he sees him privately, and tells him that's it. We are not pressing him. We don't care, because Baker. John Dean: I would suspect if we are going to get any insight to what that Committee is going to do, it is going to be through Gurney. I don't know about Weicker, where he is going to fall out on this thing. Pres. Nixon: Weicker, I think the line to Weicker is through Gray. Gray has to shape up here and handle himself well too. Do you think he will? John Dean: I do. I think Pat has had it tough. He goes up this morning as you know. He is ready. He is very comfortable in all of the decisions he has made, and I think he will be good. Pres. Nixon: But he is close to Weicker - that is what I meant. John Dean: Yes, he is. Pres. Nixon: And so Gray. John Dean: Has a lead in there - yes. Pres. Nixon: One amusing thing about the Gray thing, and I knew this would come. They say Gray is a political crony and a personal crony of the President's. Did you know that I have never seen him socially? John Dean: Is that correct? No, I didn't. Pres. Nixon: I think he has been to a couple White House events, but I have never seen him separately. John Dean: The Press has got him meeting you at a social function. And, back in 1947, (inaudible) is something I have read. Pres. Nixon: Maybe at a Radford party or something like that. That's all. I don't know. But Gray is somebody that I know only - He was Radford's Assistant, used to attend NSC meetings. He has never been a social friend. Edgar Hoover, on the other hand, I have seen socially at least a hundred times. He and I were very close friends. John Dean: This is curious the way the press - Pres. Nixon: (expletive deleted) - Hoover was my crony. He was closer to me than Johnson, actually although Johnson used him more. But as for Pat Gray, (expletive deleted) I never saw him. John Dean: While it might have been a lot of blue chips to the late Director, I think we would have been a lot better off during this whole Watergate thing if he had been alive. Because he knew how to handle that Bureau - knew how to keep them in bounds. Pres. Nixon: Well, Hoover performed. He would have fought. That was the point. He would have defied a few people. He would have scared them to death. He has a file on everybody. Pres. Nixon: But now at the present time, the Bureau is leaking like a sieve to Baker, (inaudible). It isn't coming from Henry Petersen is it? John Dean: No. I would just not believe that. Pres. Nixon: Is isn't coming from that (unintelligible). John Dean: No. Well, they are getting the raw data. They are getting what they call the 302 forms. Actually, the summaries of the interviews. Pres. Nixon: If you could handle it that way, I think that is the best thing to do. Do you ever wonder really if Colson (characterization deleted) should bring a suit. For example, I notice that Colson has a lot of vulnerabilities. You know, in terms of people that he knew, et cetera, et cetera. But I mean on a narrow issue John Dean: Well, Chuck and I talked about this. He could possibly win a suit, but lose the war, for this reason: A counter-discovery in a libel action has no bounds. Pres. Nixon: I get it. OK. John Dean: That's the problem there. Pres. Nixon: That the District Court (inaudible). John Dean: Federal Court. They could just come in and depose him on everything he has done at this point in time. Pres. Nixon: Keep him out of it. Keep him out of it. John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: What - Why doesn't Stans be the sue-er? John Dean: He's got a good one, and he may well prevail. It may well be the decisive settlement of all these other suits we've got out there. You know, we have 14 million dollar suits against us, and we have 7 or 10 against them. (expletive deleted) They ought to all get together and drop them. John Dean: That is what we are trying to get accomplished. Pres. Nixon: Hell, yes! John Dean: It is just causing everybody problems. Pres. Nixon: That is right - they've got problems, and we've got problems. Pres. Nixon: You see this Vesco thing coming up burns my tail. I raised hell with Haldeman on this and he didn't do anything about. I guess he couldn't. What (expletive omitted) became of our investigation of their financial activities? (Expletive omitted) They cancelled debts, they borrowed money. What the hell is that? John Dean: It is still going on, Mr. President. McGovern's stuff is in such bad shape. That is another unfortunate thing. The GAO comes into audit us. They find all the documents, so they are able to make Pres. Nixon: Just like two year old state tax. John Dean: They have now, but it gets about that much coverage in the paper. They can't even figure out what McGovern's done, the books are such a mess, but you haven't seen them say anything yet. And that is one of the things that hopefully we will bring out in hearings, as to what a mess this was, et cetera. Pres. Nixon: How are you going to bring it out? You can't bring it out in these hearings. John Dean: Well I think I would rather do it independently, so that the media types will bring it out. Chuck is going to be of aid when he is out there not connected with the White House, coming through with bits of tidbits. Chuck will still have his channels to flip things out. Pres. Nixon: Sure! Sure! In my view - of course it is hard to believe since he loves the action and the rest - but apart from the financial - for the country's aid, etc. - I don't care what you think: Colson can be more valuable out than in, because, basically in, he has reached the point that he was too visible. John Dean: A lightning rod. Pres. Nixon: And outside he can start this and say that I am a private citizen and I can say what I (expletive omitted) please. John Dean: Right. I think Chuck can be of great aid in this thing, and I think he will do it. Pres. Nixon: Now, as to the other thing. Just to recap. You will talk to Timmons about Baker, and get that tied down if you can. I doubt if much can be done there. Then when you talk to Kleindienst, he should know that it has been decided, and that's it. Well, he will say they won't take me. Then say "why not?" We shall see. Going on to the interrogatory thing - we shall see - your view would not to give any further ground on that? John Dean: I would say hope not. You initially hold the line as far as you can go. If it becomes necessary for informational purposes, the President is not going to hide any information. He has just given a sworn statement through an interrogatory - send your questions down they will be answered. We won't hide the information - we won't diminish the ability of the President to operate internally and the like because we have a political circus going. Pres. Nixon: OK. I understand that Molenhoff still thinks everybody should go up and testify. John Dean: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: At least you had a talk with him. I do want you to look at the case, though. John Dean: Yes Sir. Pres. Nixon: If the guy's got a bad rap, this man, (expletive omitted) we will get him out of it! John Dean: I am doing that. I talked with Clark yesterday. I talked with him last night again. He is on this as hot and heavy as can be and - Pres. Nixon: Does he think he's got a bad rap? John Dean: He does - he thinks he's got a bad rap. I know Rule hasn't a bad rap. When a bureaucrat takes it upon himself to go out, and go way beyond the pale in terms of attacking an Administration that can't be tolerated. Suppose a Congressman or a Senator or one of his Administrative Assistants went out and attacked one of his contributors. What would he do? Fire him! That's right. Pres. Nixon: I noticed where several of our Congressmen and Republican Senators called upon us to reinstate Rule. Congress is, of course, on its (inaudible). And yet they are so enormously frustrated that they are exhausted. Isn't that the point? John Dean: I think there is a lot of that. Pres. Nixon: It is too bad. We can take very little comfort from it because we have to work with them. But they become irrelevant because they are so damned irresponsible, as much as we would like to say otherwise. John Dean: Yes, sir. I spent some years on the Hill myself and one of the things I always noticed was the inability of the Congress to deal effectively with the Executive Branch because they have never provided themselves with adequate staffs, had adequate information available - Pres. Nixon: Well now they have huge staffs compared to what we had. John Dean: Well they have huge staffs, true, as opposed to what they had years ago. But they are still inadequate to deal effectively - Pres. Nixon: (Expletive deleted) Don't try to help them out! John Dean: I am not suggesting any reserve money for them. I ought to keep my observations to myself. I think this is going to be very different. It will be hot, I think they are going to be tough. I think they are going to be gory in some regards, but I am also absolutely convinced that if everyone pulls their own oar in this thing, in all those we've got with various concerns, we can make it through these things and minimal people will be hurt. And they may even paint themselves as being such partisans and off base, that they are really damaging to the institutions of the government themselves. Pres. Nixon: I frankly say that I would rather they would be partisan - rather than for them to have a facade of fairness and all the rest. Ervin always talks about his being a great Constitutional lawyer. (expletive deleted) He's got Baker totally toppled over to him. Ervin works harder than most of our Southern gentlemen. They are great politicians. They are just more clever than the minority. Just more clever! John Dean: I am convinced that he has shown that he is merely a puppet for Kennedy in this whole thing. The fine hand of the Kennedys is behind this whole hearing. There is no doubt about it. When they considered the resolution on the Floor of the Senate I got the record out to read it. Who asked special permission to have their Staff man on the floor? Kennedy brings this man - Flug out on the floor when they are debating a resolution. He is the only one who did this. It has been Kennedy's push quietly, his constant investigation. His committee did the (unintelligible) subpoenas to get at Kalmbach and all these people. Pres. Nixon: Uh, huh. John Dean: He has kept this quiet and constant pressure on this thing. I think this fellow Sam Dash, who has been selected Counsel, is a Kennedy choice. I think this is also something we will be able to quietly and slowly document. Leak this to the press, and the parts and cast become much more apparent. Pres. Nixon: Yes, I guess the Kennedy crowd is just laying in the bushes waiting to make their move. I had forgotten, by the way, we talk about Johnson using the FBI. Did your friends tell you what Bobby did? John Dean: I haven't heard but I wouldn't be - Pres. Nixon: Johnson believed that Bobby bugged him. John Dean: That wouldn't surprise me. Pres. Nixon: Bobby was a ruthless (characterization omitted.) But the FBI does blatantly tell you that or Sullivan told you about the New Jersey thing. He did use a bug up there for intelligence work. (inaudible) John Dean: (inaudible) Intelligence workers had agents all over the property. Pres. Nixon: The doctors say that the poor old gent had a tumor. The FBI said he had one. John Dean: He had Abe Fortas and Deke Deloache backed up by some other people in the Bureau and try to talk this doctor into examining this guy to say the man had a brain tumor. He was very (unintelligible) ill, slightly erratic, but eager. This doctor wouldn't buy it. Pres. Nixon: The doctor had never examined him before or anything. John Dean: No. Pres. Nixon: They were trying to set it up though, huh? What other kind of activities? John Dean: Well, as I say, I haven't probed Sullivan to the depths on this thing because I want to treat him at arm's length until he is safe, because he has a world of information that may be available. Pres. Nixon: But he says that what happened on the bugging thing. Who told what to whom again? John Dean: On the '68 thing - I was trying to track down the leaks. He said that the only place he could figure it coming from would be one of a couple of sources he was bare of that had been somewhat discovered publicly. He aid that Hoover had told Patrick Coyne about the fact that this was done. Coyne had told Rockefeller - now Rockefeller had told Kissinger. I have never run it any step beyond what Mr. Sullivan said there. The other thing is that when the records were unavailable for Mr. Hoover all these logs, etc. Hoover tried to reconstruct them by going to the Washington Field Office and he made a pretty good stir about what he was doing when he was trying to get the record and reconstruct it. He said that at that time we probably hit the grapevine in the Bureau that this had occurred. But there is no evidence of it. The records show at the Department of Justice and the FBI that no such surveillance was ever conducted. Pres. Nixon: Shocking to me! John Dean: What the White House had from reporters in -LIFE. The other person who knows and is aware of it is Mark Felt, and we have talked about Mark Felt before. Pres. Nixon: Let's face it. Suppose Felt comes out now and under raps. What does it do to him? John Dean: He can't do it. Pres. Nixon: How about (unintelligible)? Who is going to hire him? Let's face it - the guy who goes out - he couldn't do it unless he had a guarantee from somebody like TIME Magazine who would say look we will give you a job for life. Then what do they do? He would go to a job at - LIFE, and everyone would treat him like a pariah. He is - in a very dangerous situation. These guys you know - the informers. Look what it did to Chambers. Chambers informed because he didn't give (expletive deleted). But then one of the most brilliant writers according to Jim Shepley we have ever seen in this country - and I am not referring to the Communist issue - greatest writer of his time, - about 30 years ago, probably TIME's best writer of the century - they finished him. Either way, the informer is not one in our society. Either way, that is the one thing people can't survive. They say no civilized (characterization deleted) informs. Hoover to Coyne to Nelson Rockefeller to Kissinger. Right? John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Why did Coyne tell it to Nelson Rockefeller? I have known Coyne for years. I haven't known him well, but he was a great friend of one of my Administrative Assistants, Bob King, who used to be a Bureau head. John Dean: Now this is Sullivan's story. I have no reason to know whether it is true, but I don't have any reason to doubt that it is true. Pres. Nixon: Hoover told me, and he also told Mitchell personally that this had happened. John Dean: I was talking the '68 incident that occurred. I wasn't referring to that now. When this Coyne, etc., this was the fact that newsmen - excuse me I thought you were making reference to the fact that three years ago the White House had allegedly - Pres. Nixon: Oh, sure, sure. That is not the same one. John Dean: On the '68 incident all I have been able to find out is what you told me that Hoover had told you, what he had told Mitchell. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Mitchell corroborates that, doesn't he? John Dean: Kevin Phillips called Pat Buchanan the other day with a tidbit that Dick Whelan on the NSC staff has seen memoranda between the NSC and the FBI that the FBI had been instructed to put surveillance on Anna Chennault, the South Vietnamese Embassy and the Agnew plane. This note also said that Deke DeLoach was the operative FBI officer on this. Pres. Nixon: The Agnew plane? I think DeLoach's memory now is very very hazy. He doesn't remember anything. John Dean: I talked to Mitchell about this and he has talked to DeLoach. DeLoach has in his possession, and he has let Mitchell review them, some of the files on this. Pres. Nixon: But not - John Dean: But they don't go very far; this is DeLoach protecting his own hide. Pres. Nixon: It is just as well because we can't do anything with it. So Hoover told Coyne, who told Rockefeller, that newsmen were being bugged. John Dean: That tickles you. That is right. Pres. Nixon: Why do you suppose they did that? John Dean: I haven't the foggiest idea. It is a Sullivan story as to where the leak might have come from about the current Time Magazine story, which we are stonewalling to - tally here. Pres. Nixon: Oh, absolutely. --------------------------- Material unrelated to Presidential action deleted --------------------------- Pres. Nixon: Well, is this the year you are going to try to get out the '68 story? John Dean: Well, I think the threat of the '68 story when Scott and others were arguing that the Committee up on the Hill broadened its mandate to include other elections. They were hinting around at something in 1968 and 1964 that should be looked at. Pres. Nixon: Yeah, Goldwater claims he was bugged. John Dean: That's right. Now I think that threats - Pres. Nixon: Didn't you say that Johnson did bug Goldwater? John Dean: Well, I don't know if he bugged him. Pres. Nixon: He did intelligence work? John Dean: He did intelligence up one side and down the other - Pres. Nixon: From the FBI? John Dean: Just up one side and down the other on Goldwater. I haven't had a chance to talk to the Senator, and I have known the Senator for twenty years. He is the first man in public life I ever met. Barry Jr. and I were roommates in school together, so I can talk to the man. So I am really going to sit down with him one day and see what really happened. Pres. Nixon: Does he have any hard evidence? John Dean: Then we can go from there and. Pres. Nixon: Right. John Dean: Get some stuff written, etc. I do think you have to remember, as I am sure you realize, this is mainly a public relations thing anyway. Pres. Nixon: What is the situation anyway with regard to the situation of the sentencing of the seven? When in the hell is that going to occur? John Dean: That is likely to occur, I would say, as early as late this week, but more likely sometime next week. Pres. Nixon: Why has it been delayed so long? John Dean: Well, they have been in the process of preparing a pre-sentence report. The Judge sends out probation officers to find out everybody who knew these people, and then he will. Pres. Nixon: He is trying to work on them to see who will break them down? John Dean: Well, there is some of that. They are using the probation officer for more than the normal probation report. They are trying to do a mini-investigation by the judge himself which is his only investigative tool here so they are virtually completed now. The U.S. Attorneys handles these, the Assistant U.S. Attorneys. Pres. Nixon: You know when they talk about a 35 year sentence, here is something to think about. There were no weapons! Right? There were no injuries! Right? There was no success! Why does that sort of thing happen? It is just ridiculous! (Characterization deleted) Are they in jail? John Dean: Well, all but one. Hunt made the bond - everybody else is in jail. They have a $100,000 surety bond which means that they have to put actual collateral, and none of these people have $100,000. The Court of Appeals has been sitting for two weeks or better now on a review of the bond issue and letting people out for charity cases. --------------------------- Material unrelated to Presidential action deleted --------------------------- Pres. Nixon: You still think Sullivan is basically reliable? John Dean: I have nothing to judge that on except that I have watched him for a number of years. I watched him when he was working with Tom Huston on domestic intelligence, and his desire to do the right thing. I tried to stay in touch with Bill, and find out what his moods are. Bill was forced on the outside for a long time. He didn't become bitter. He sat back and waited until he could come back in. He didn't try to force or blackmail his way around with knowledge he had. So I have no signs of anything but a reliable man who thinks a great deal of this Administration and of you. --------------------------- Material unrelated to Presidential action deleted --------------------------- John Dean: I have got to say one thing. There has never been a leak out of my office. There never was - be a leak out of my office. I wouldn't begin to know how to leak and I don't want to learn how you leak. Pres. Nixon: Well, it was a shocking thing. I was reading a book last night. A fascinating book, although fun book, by Malcolm Smith Jr. on Kennedy's Thirteen Mistakes, the great mistakes. And one of them was on the Bay of Pigs. And what had happened, there was Chester Bowles had learned about it, and he deliberately leaked it. Deliberately, because he wanted the operation to fail! And be admitted it! Admitted it! John Dean: Interesting. Interesting Pres. Nixon: This happens all the time. Well, you can follow these characters to their Gethsemane. I feel for those poor guys in jail, particularly for Hunt with his wife dead. John Dean: Well there is every indication they are hanging in tough right now. Pres. Nixon: What the hell do they expect though? Do they expect clemency in a reasonable time? What would you advise on that? John Dean: I think it is one of those things we will have to watch very closely. For example, - Pres. Nixon: You couldn't do it, say, in six months. John Dean: No, you couldn't. This thing may become so political as a result of these hearings that it is a vendetta. This judge may go off the deep end in sentencing, and make it so absurd that its clearly injustice that they have been heavily - Pres. Nixon: Is there any kind of appeal left? John Dean: Right. Liddy and McCord, who sat through the trial, will both be on appeal and there is no telling how long that will last. It is one of these things we will just have to watch. Pres. Nixon: My view though is to say nothing about them on the ground that the matter is still in the courts and on appeal. Second, my view is to say nothing about the hearings at this point, except that I trust they will be conducted the proper way and I will not comment on the hearings while they are in process. Of course if they break through - if they get muckraking - It is best not to cultivate that thing here at the White House. If it is done at the White House again they are going to drop the (adjective deleted) thing. Now there, of course, you say but you leave it all to them. We'll see as time goes on. Maybe we will have to change our policy. But the President should not become involved in any part of this case. Do you agree with that? John Dean: I agree totally, sir. Absolutely. That doesn't mean that quietly we are not going to be working around the office. You can rest assured that we are not going to be sitting quietly. Pres. Nixon: I don't know what we can do. The people who are most disturbed about this (unintelligible) are the (adjective deleted) Republicans. A lot of these Congressmen, financial contributors, et cetera, are highly moral. The Democrats are just sort of saying, "(expletive deleted) fun and games!" John Dean: Well, hopefully we can give them Segretti. Pres. Nixon: (Expletive deleted) He was such a dumb figure, I don't see how our boys could have gone for him. But nevertheless, they did. It was really juvenile! But, nevertheless, what the hell did he do? What in the (characterization deleted) did he do? Shouldn't we be trying to get intelligence? Weren't they trying to get intelligence from us? John Dean: Absolutely! Pres. Nixon: Don't you try to disrupt their meetings? Didn't they try to disrupt ours? (expletive deleted) They threw rocks, ran demonstrations, shouted, cut the sound system, and let the tear gas in at night. What the hell is that all about? Did we do that? John Dean: McGovern had Dick Tuck on his payroll, and Dick Tuck was down in Texas when you were down at the Connally ranch and set up to do a prank down there. But it never came off. Pres. Nixon: What did Segretti do that came off? John Dean: He did some humorous things. For example, there would be a fund-raising dinner, and he hired Wayne the Wizard to fly in from the Virgin Islands to perform a magic show. He sent invitations to all the black diplomats and sent limousines out to have them picked up, and they all showed up and they hadn't been invited. He had 400 pizzas sent to another - Pres. Nixon: Sure! What the hell! Pranks! Tuck did all those things in 1960, and all the rest. John Dean: I think we can keep the Segretti stuff in perspective because it is not that bad. Chapin's involvement is not that deep. He was the catalyst, and that is about the extent of it. Pres. Nixon: Sure, he knew him and recommended him. John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: But he didn't run him. He was too busy with us. John Dean: The one I think they are going to go after with a vengeance - and I plan to spend a great deal of time with next week, as a matter of fact a couple of days getting this all in order - is Herb Kalmbach. Pres. Nixon: Yes. John Dean: Herb - they have subpoenaed his records, and he has records that run all over hell's acres on things. You know Herb has been a man who has been moving things around for Maury and keeping things in tow and taking care of - Pres. Nixon: What is holding up his records? John Dean: They already have gotten to the banks that had them, and what I think we will do is that there will be a logical, natural explanation for every single transaction. It is just a lot of minutiaewe've got to go through but he is coming in next week and I told him we would sit down and he is preparing everything - all that is available, and we are going to sit down with Frank DeMarco and see if we can't get this whole thing - Pres. Nixon: They can't get his records with regard to his private transactions? John Dean: No, none of the private transactions. Absolutely, that is privileged material. Anything to do with San Clemente and the like - that is just so far out of bounds that - Pres. Nixon: Did they ask for them? John Dean: No. No indication. Pres. Nixon: Kalmbach is a decent fellow. He will make a good witness. John Dean: I think he will. Pres. Nixon: He is smart. John Dean: He has been tough thus far. He can take it. His skin is thick now. Sure it bothered him when all this press was being played up. LA Times were running stories on him all the time and the like. Local stations have been making him more of a personality and his partners have been nipping at him, but Herb is tough now. He is ready and he is going to go through. He is hunkered down and he is ready to handle it, so I am not worried about Herb at all. Pres. Nixon: Oh well, it will be hard for him. I suppose the big thing is the financing transaction that they will go after him for. How does the money get to the Bank of Mexico, etc. John Dean: Oh, well, all that can be explained. Pres. Nixon: It can? John Dean: Yes, indeed! Yes, sir! They are going to be disappointed with a lot of the answers they get. When they actually get the facts - because the Times and the Post had such innuendo - when they get the facts, they are going to be disappointed. Pres. Nixon: The one point that you ought to get to Baker. I tried to get it through his thick skull. His skull is not thick but tell Kleindienst in talking to Baker - and Herb should emphasize that the way to have a successful hearing and a fair one is to run it like a court: no hearsay, no innuendo! Now you now - John Dean: That's a hell of a good point. Pres. Nixon: (expletive deleted) well, they are not going to but tell them that is the way Nixon ran the Hiss Case. As a matter of fact some innuendo came out, but there was (adjective deleted) little hearsay. We really just got the facts, and tore them to pieces. Say "no hearsay" and "no innuendo." Ervin should sit like a court there: that is hearsay, and the counsel for our people should get up and say, "I object to that, Mr. Chairman," on the basis that it is hearsay. John Dean: That is a heck of an idea, Mr. President. Some of these early articles said - will Sam Ervin, Constitutional man, be a judge? Will he admit hearsay? We can try to get some think pieces out to try to get a little pressure on him to perform that way, to make it look like partisan when he doesn't. Pres. Nixon: The point that Kleindienst gets out: no hearsay, no innuendo! There will be no hearsay, no innuendo. This will be a model of a Congressional hearing. That will disappoint the (adjective deleted) press. No hearsay! No innuendo! No leaks! John Dean: Well, there are a lot of precedents. I have been involved in two Congressional investigations. One was the Adam Clayton Powell investigation when I was working over there as the Minority Counsel of the House Judiciary. We didn't take hearsay. We stuck to the facts on that. We did an investigation of the Oklahoma judges. Again, the same sort of thing. We went into executive session when necessary. I bet if we look around, respectable investigations that have been held up there that could be held up, and some of it should be coming forth to set the stage for these hearings. I am planning a number of brain sessions with some of the media people to - Pres. Nixon: I know. It is very important, but it seems like a terrible waste of your time. But it is important in the sense that all this business is a battle and they are going to wage the battle. A lot of them have enormous frustrations about those elections, state of their party, etc. And their party has its problems. We think we have had problems, look at some of theirs. Strauss has had people and all the actors, and they haven't done that well you know. John Dean: Well I was - we have come a long road on this thing now. I had thought it was an impossible task to hold together until after the election until things started falling out, but we have made it this far and I am convinced we are going to make it the whole road and put this thing in the funny pages of the history books rather than anything serious because actually - Pres. Nixon: It will be somewhat serious but the main thing, of course, is also the isolation of the President. John Dean: Absolutely! Totally true! Pres. Nixon: Because that, fortunately, is totally true. John Dean: I know that sir! Pres. Nixon: (expletive deleted) Of course, I am not dumb and I will never forget when I heard about this (adjective deleted) forced entry and bugging. I thought, what in the hell is this? What is the matter with these people? Are they crazy? I thought they were nuts! A prank! But it wasn't! It wasn't very funny. I think that our Democratic friends know that, too. They know what the hell it was. They don't think we'd be involved in such. John Dean: I think they do too. Pres. Nixon: Maybe they don't. They don't think I would be involved in such stuff. They think I have people capable of it. And they are correct, in that Colson would do anything. Well, ok. - Have a little fun. And now I will not talk to you again until you have something to report to me. John Dean: Alright, sir. Pres. Nixon: But I think it is very important that you have these talks with our good friend Kleindienst. John Dean: That will be done. Pres. Nixon: Tell him we have to get these things worked out. We have to work together on this thing. I would build him up. He is the man who can make the difference. Also point out to him what we have. (expletive deleted) Colson's got (characterization deleted), but I really, really, - this stuff here - let's forget this. But let's remember this was not done by the White House. This was done by the Committee to Re-Elect, and Mitchell was the Chairman, correct? John Dean: That's correct! Pres. Nixon: And Kleindienst owes Mitchell everything. Mitchell wanted him for Attorney General. Wanted him for Deputy, and here he is. Now, (expletive deleted). Baker's got to realize this, and that if he allows this thing to get out of hand he is going to potentially ruin John Mitchell. He won't. Mitchell won't allow himself to be ruined. He will put on his big stone face. But I hope he does and he will. There is no question what they are after. What the Committee is after is somebody at the White House. They would like to get Haldeman or Colson, Ehrlichman. John Dean: Or possible Dean. - You know, I am a small fish. Pres. Nixon: Anybody at the White House they would - but in your case I think they realize you are the lawyer and they know you didn't have a (adjective deleted) thing to do with the campaign. John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: That's what I think. Well, we'll see you. John Dean: Alright, sir. - Good bye.